Motivational Discussion Forum For Horse Riders>
Respect
Quote: Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.
LC

67 post s
27-Jun-2008
3:53 AM
Does anybody else have problems with lack of respect from their horse?
Zack has been driving me mad just lately - he's gone from being quite 'laid back' in the school to downright lazy and stubborn.
The last few times I have tried to ride him on my own in the school he just plods round, not bothering to even pick his feet up and as a result tripping regularly. If I ask for a trot he trots for a few yards then goes back to a plod, and a couple of days ago he added insult to injury by changing direction - off his own bat - ambling over to the gate and just standing there with his head over the gate looking in the direction of the stables as much to say 'can we go back and have dinner now?'
I hadn't taken a whip with me that day but there was one laying around in the school, so I got off, picked it up and got back on and hey! guess what, all of a sudden he decided to do as he was told - just about. :0/
Last night I rode him in the school again and this time there was another horse and rider in there as well - the daughter of the man who used to hack him out for me in the winter and as usual I couldn't get him to trot - untill Joe trotted and Zack decided he would as well!! I MADE him walk at that point - I was so annoyed because he wouldn't do it when I asked him to but thought HE could decide when to do it.
After discussing this with Joe's owner for a few minutes and him saying that Zack knows that if he plays up - I give up and get off and he can go back to grazing and he said let Lorna have a go and see how he is with her.
Of course he was 110% with her!!
A beautiful trot all round the school folowed by a lovely collected canter and this girl is a year younger than my daughter who I might add is having pretty much the same trouble with him.
I was nearly in tears with sheer frustration. :0(
Any suggestions from anyone out there would be really appreciated.
Bye for now
Megan
scooter2

94 post s
27-Jun-2008
6:08 AM
Most horses are like toddlers in a grocery store. They will test you and test you whether or not they are "the boss" or you are. Are you letting fear get in the way of correcting him? It may take you carrying that whip for a while. Zack sounds a tad lazy (not a bad thing for someone scared of riding) and he knows who will make him listen. Please don't compare yourself to another rider especially a young fearless one. I'd bet she "goosed" Zack who knew right away he was in trouble. Do what works for you.

Last Edited on 27-Jun-2008 6:09 AM

Determined

250 post s
27-Jun-2008
8:54 AM
I don't really think of myself as a softy. I like well-mannered and polite animals, and I take the time to study and learn and train them. And I expect obedience from them.

However, I guess I am really softer than I think. Because when I watch other people interact with my horse, he responds differently to them. Last year, as soon as the trainer sat down in the saddle, he started pinning his ears and swishing his tail. She said it was because he knew she wouldn't let him get away with stuff like I did! That was a real eye-opener - I had no idea I was "letting him get away with" anything. I realized just a few weeks ago that his lovely long-strided walk had substantially shortened to a dog walk. Why? Because I allowed it!!!! Without even realizing it, I was not expecting him to walk out in a nice even stride, and so he was no longer doing it. The second I touched him with my leg and asked him for a better walk, he produced it.

I am also realizing from some of the posts here (especially DixieMom) that I allow him into my space too much. Just last night leading him from the field, I realized he was literally breathing down my neck. When I stopped, his nose bumped into my head! I immediately turned around and glared at him and stomped my foot. He threw his head up and jumped back with a totally surprised look. I don't blame him for being surprised - I never demanded that he stay out of my space. However, I intend to do more of it.

I'm sorry for the long saga, but I was intending to illustrate what can happen when we allow ourselves to get lazy. By being lazy ourselves and not demanding certain behavior from them, they also get lazy. Let's face it - they are basically lazy critters who will do as little as they need to. Its up to us to show them what they need to do.

demelza

47 post s
27-Jun-2008
12:33 PM
Well they say horses will get away with using the least amount of energy they can so they have it should they need to escape and this is just what your horse is doing.

My horse will walk slowly, although is trot is nice. while riding in company I have to continue to nudge him with my legs to keep him walking brisk. If I dont he reverts to his slow walk. However I'm aware that I'm one of those people that dont like to hurt animals and for some reason I think nudging is (after all I wouldnt want someone doing that to me!). I think because of this I tend to not do it hard enough to show I mean business and instead "nag him" with soft nudges. Clinton Anderson talks about owners who nag and dont show they mean it. After "nagging" horses start to ignore it. I was wondering if your horse is the same.

As for him doing everything the other riders ask ..this is because he is unsure of them and whether he will get told off properly. They are therefore on their best behaviour.

Theres nothing wrong with carrying a whip. Its how you use it that matters.

Last Edited on 27-Jun-2008 12:35 PM

scooter2

95 post s
27-Jun-2008
12:48 PM
Theres nothing wrong with carrying a whip. Its how you use it that matters.
Very wise point! You might not need to ever use it.
I would not want to be the first one to tap a horse with a whip unless it had been tapped before. Hubby shocked me the other day when he whacked my snitty mare with the ends of the reins. She was fine about it and listened but I thought she would go bronco with him.
LC

68 post s
27-Jun-2008
1:04 PM
Thanks for all your input, and scooter2 I know what you mean about using a whip as opposed to just carrying it.
I realised a long time ago that he paid much more attention if I carried a whip but now it's almost as though he is daring me to use it. Another friend at the yard said to me this morning when I was discussing the last few days events with her, that he needs to know now that I would use it, and if I'm honest I AM scared that he will 'throw a wobbly' if I did!
She said that I have his trust now but gaining his respect is going to take a lot longer!
I have a lesson booked for tomorrow I'll let you know how it goes.
Bye for now
Megan
Determined

253 post s
27-Jun-2008
1:43 PM
When Wish is in his stubborn mode and I smack his butt with the crop, he will kick out one hind leg. It is pure temper through and through. The only problem is that I have to make sure no one is behind me or they will get whacked. He nailed another horse last year who just happened to be standing behind him. So far, he has done no more than kick out a hind leg though. My Quarter Horse did absolutely nothing about getting a swat (except correct his behavior!).
dog-shrink

279 post s
28-Jun-2008
2:06 AM
Iroquois is the same, laziness personified! Also having been so scared to ride I let him stop when he wanted to and didn't correct him if he changed direction. It was all I could do to get on and ride. So, now that phase is well and truly over! I now go and ride him on my own and keep him going in trot and in the direction I want. He still tries it on with me. I guess it really will be a while before he fully does as he is told with me.Just like some others here, he behaves great for the trainer. Yes, it's so frustrating. But we need to remember we have probably been giving them mixed messages for some time "trot on, but not too fast,OK stop if you like" etc.
I carry a whip and do use it. Just a tap but I'm now not afraid to use it and he knows it. I'd much prefer not to, but maybe that will come with time. I'm also "geeing him up" with my voice and body. Something I couldn't have done a few weeks ago. I'm trying to get the fastest trot I can and then I'm going to ask for canter. Building up to it, but I'm not scared of asking for faster any more. I cannot believe the change in me!
Anyone seen the "giddy up rope"? It's a Monty thing. A very soft rope with a big tassle on the end. You swish it in front of your body from side to side. It doesn't have to touch the horse but they see it and speed up. I'm going to make one. Of course you need to introduce it so they are not really afraid of it but just respectful.
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Bitless - not witless!
demelza

48 post s
28-Jun-2008
7:47 AM
I dont want to use the whip while I'm in the saddle, just in case he takes off! However sometimes, before I get on, I whip my boot really hard, he does take notice that I've used it and with force too. It makes a lovely whippy whack noise..lol!

When he bolted some months back and I fell off i didnt have a whip but I was so mad I hit him on his chest when I got up. I dont know who was more stunned, him because I'd fallen off and hit him or me because I had fallen off and was giving him a whack!

cowardly lion

1 post
1-Jul-2008
4:06 AM
This is me exactly - am nervous of toughening up as I think I may get an adverse reaction. I know this stems from last time when he was acting up and I tried to ride him through it and ended up on the floor and out of action for a few weeks. I know I cannot allow him to get away with what he wants - also I think what dog shrink says is true, I may send mixed messages - but how do you get over this? Be really interested to find what has worked for you...is it a case of just keep plugging away, or did you suddenly realise it was OK to be 'firm but fair'??
Izabella

87 post s
1-Jul-2008
5:07 AM
I like that... firm but fair.
I had some issues with my perch/QH cross with the whip, he was horribly lazy which I had been ok with when all I wanted to do was walk but to keep him trotting I had to carry a crop, then it progressed to using the crop which would cause him to buck and although I was ready for trot I wasn't ready for a buck so it just made me angry with him and angry with me... nasty downward spiral and finally I just wouldn't ride him at all...but for us it was not a good personality match to begin with, he was challenging and lazy and I think i'm more suited to a social horse. I do agree about the nagging although I am unsure what to do about it as well, fortunately my lesson horse rarely requires a crop and whatever horse I buy will be ridden crop-less and be ok with it. But if you're comfortable riding with one and you use it correctly and only when needed why not? If you're unsure about his reaction you can try a trick, my instructor has me actually just kind of thump it a little on my leg so he gets the idea... works like a charm and then I don't feel bad about hurting him, which of course leads to the speil about how can I hurt a 1000lb horse...
I think they probably come to expect behavior from us just like we expect it from them and perhaps that's why when they are used to us they know what they can get away with. And its not just riders who are nervous... my instructor has those issues with her horse who is trained to the hilt, incredibly responsive... but she gets in her head that she's just not going to do something and there isn't much even my instructor can do about it. I think it also depends on the horses "personality" as well... our gelding will completely mess with you until you show him who the boss is then he just gives a big sigh and goes along. Sometimes I think they are too smart for their own good.
DixieMom

411 post s
1-Jul-2008
5:40 AM
Pony Boy, the Native American horse trainer says that whenever a horse is acting stubborn or lazy, he is simply acknowleging that he has become the alpha. (Remember, the alpha gets to do whatever the alpha wants.)

Karen Scholl (Parelli trainer for women) is really big into teaching women to be leaders for their horses. She says over and over that "being nice" is not what makes the horse "like" us - being a leader is what the horse really wants.

Ray Hunt coined the phrase "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard." Make the horse WORK if he is not doing the right thing. The option then becomes his.

It's OK to smack his butt if he needs it. Horses do it to each other ALL THE TIME. Watch them. The alpha will move everyone away from her by pinning her ears, snaking her neck or giving just a swing of her head. Horses understands body language. But she will also bite and kick to reinforce the rules. Horses understand physical discipline. FAIR is the key word! CONSISTENCY is the other key word! The rules have to be fair, clear and enforced 100% of the time.

A crop can be very effective as an enforcer of the rules. But we tend to attach emotions to discipline. Horses don't - they just do it and it is over. Discipline is a natural consequence of bad behavior in the herd. They don't resent the alpha for it, they LOVE her. Just look how frantic they get when the alpha leaves!

We need to learn that fair discipline is what horses expect from each other and we should also "be there" for them in the same way. We shouldn't attach emotions of anger, frustration or fear with it. When a horse knows the rules, he feels so much more secure and is a safer ride, because he knows his leader is strong enough to keep him safe.
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Dixie Mom

"The art of riding:
Keeping a horse between you and the ground!"

kynagirl

106 post s
2-Jul-2008
10:28 AM
yes!

Well said DixieMom!


AMEN!

That is how I look at things too. Especially on the ground, I had a nasty little two yrs, that loves to be in your face. Well! Did I ever changed in The Alpha mare stage! I just give him the dirty look, not moving, well he got a swift kik from me on his chest, then I went on my business a usuall like nothing appen, not a word out of my mouth. The little guy thinks twice now about coming in MY BUBBLE! (Maybe I should do that too with human that comes in my bubble!hihii)

But God knows that I do lose that Alpha thing on top... crap!!!

SnickersMom

143 post s
2-Jul-2008
10:37 AM
Dixiemom mentioned a crop....yes a crop can work wonders!!! When my old mare, who is retired now, would test me I would get a crop and I NEVER had to use it. Just kept it in my hand while riding and she was "perfect". Next time, I didn't even need to hold it. She would just need reminding once in a while.

Snickersmom :)

DixieMom

417 post s
2-Jul-2008
5:45 PM
Good for you, Kynagirl! It starts on the ground. You do whatever it takes, especially with youngsters, because they are ALWAYS testing you. I might have told the story about our young gelding mule, who would not respect my space. I just couldn't communicate it clearly to him, and he was getting pushy to the point of dangerous. So as a last resort I did what the alpha mare does to him all the time - I bit him! Right on the neck. He stepped into my space again and I bit him again. He has never really challenged me since. Now I can give him the "evil alpha eye" and say, "You get back!" and he backs right up and waits for further instructions!

I think if you can teach your horse some basic commands like lateral and veritcal flexions, backing, and circling on the ground, you can use those same exercises when you mount. You just have to ask for the same things with the same expectation of obedience while you are in the saddle. Be just as firm as you are on the ground. Stop while you are ahead, even if it's only a 15 minute ride. Gradually you will build a base of leadership in the saddle. Set a plan in your mind of what you are going to do - like ride straight to a certain rock, stop, back 3 steps, stand still for 30 seconds, then walk off to another spot and circle it. Focusing on a plan will give you assertiveness and make your horse realize that he's taking his cues from you, his boss.

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Dixie Mom

"The art of riding:
Keeping a horse between you and the ground!"

JoyRider

5 post s
3-Jul-2008
3:46 AM
On a lighter note: Play this Aretha Franklin song to him.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Just teasing. Everyone has given you excellent advice. Good luck and I believe you will work it out. Joy